The Mask We Wear: Leadership, Identity, and the Emotional Cost of Visibility with Matthew Krayton

“Many leaders aren’t just performing for the public—they’re performing for themselves.” - Matthew Krayton

Leadership today is less about perfection and more about presence. In this episode, Matthew Krayton, leadership advisor and co-founder of M2Aspire, shares how leaders can align strategy with values, manage emotional intensity, and drop the performance mask to lead with clarity and authenticity—especially in the spotlight.

Are you leading from who you truly are—or from a version of yourself designed to meet others' expectations?

Key Takeaway Insights & Tools (with Timestamps)

• You’ll never please everyone—stop trying.
  Strong leadership begins with letting go of the need to satisfy all audiences and instead anchoring decisions in your values.
  [08:24]
• Pause before responding.
  Emotional reactions often outweigh data in leadership decisions. Build the habit of pausing before reacting to create distance from emotional triggers.
  [13:50]
• Use emotional labeling to regulate tough conversations.
  Internally or aloud, naming emotions—like "This is frustration"—helps shift from reaction to response.
  [19:32]
• Curiosity beats defensiveness.
  In tense situations, lead with curiosity instead of argument. Phrases like “Help me understand” reduce conflict and build connection.
  [18:06]
• Don’t skip mindset work.
  Leaders often jump to tactics and execution without building the internal foundation to handle pressure. Emotional fitness and clarity are prerequisites to effective leadership.
  [34:50]

Bio

Matthew Krayton is the Co-Founder of M2Aspire, where he helps founders, executives, and teams align strategy with story - especially during times of growth, reinvention, or internal misalignment. Through a blend of coaching, advisory, and communications strategy, he supports leaders navigating the emotional and strategic toll of visibility.

Matt previously founded Publitics, a nationally recognized public affairs firm, where he advised campaigns at every level of government and worked on special projects during the 2020 presidential race, including helping to create President Joe Biden’s viral “We Just Did” hat.

He also teaches in Centenary University’s Business Department, where he serves as an adjunct professor in their pioneering social media program. Earlier in his career, Matt worked at Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind Poll and taught in the Law in the Liberal Arts program.

• Website: m2aspire.com
• LinkedIn: Matthew Krayton
• Substack: M2Aspire on Substack
• Instagram: @m2aspire

Related Past Episodes:

• [Leading Through Change and Chaos with Marianne B. Hagen]
• [Building Psychological Safety at Work with Dr. Chika Oriuwa]

If this episode made you rethink how you show up as a leader, share it with someone navigating leadership challenges right now. And don’t forget to subscribe to It’s an Inside Job for more insights that help you lead from the inside out.

Chapters

• 0:08 Introduction to Resilience and Leadership
• 2:06 Meeting Matthew Creighton
• 7:36 Understanding the Visibility Test
• 12:03 Managing Emotional Feedback
• 18:05 The Importance of Curiosity
• 31:15 Transition to Part Two
• 40:33 The Mask of Leadership
• 48:30 Embracing Authentic Leadership
• 56:49 Final Insights on Leadership
• 59:20 Conclusion and Reflection

Transcript

0:04

This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Well, welcome back to the show. perhaps I've caught you walking your dog or going for a run or driving to work or catching the bus home from work. Well, I've got a question for you. Have you ever felt pressured to perform a version of yourself that isn't entirely real just to meet others' expectations of what a leader should be? And maybe even much more relevant question is that what happens when that mass becomes part of your identity. So in this week's episode, I'm joined by Matthew Creighton. He's a leadership advisor who specializes in helping founders, executives, and teams align their strategy with their story, particularly in times of growth, reinvention, or internal misalignment. Now, Matthew is the co-founder of M2 Aspire, where he supports leaders navigating both the emotional and strategic toll of visibility. Now, previously, he founded Publitix, a nationally recognized public affairs firm and played a role in the 2020 U.S. Presidential race, most notably helping to create President Biden's viral, we just did it hat. So we cover a lot of ground in this conversation, but some of the most salient points are what it means to lead under constant scrutiny, how to make decisions when no answer pleases everyone, tools for managing emotionally charged feedback, and how to lead in contentious, high pressure situations, well, without losing alignment with your values. But the real insight, the big key one, the one that may shift how you see yourself as a leader, whether you're a veteran or you're just starting to lead others, well, we'll reveal that at the end of the conversation. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Matt. I'd like to welcome everyone back to the show matt welcome thanks for having me could we kick off by you introducing who you are and briefly what you do, sure so uh my name is matt creighton i am uh so i uh these days i'm wearing two hats uh so i uh am the founder and principal at a public affairs and strategic communications firm called public That was my first venture. I started that about 14 years ago. And now I am co-founder of another venture called M2 Aspire, where we do leadership development work. And I started that with my partner, Molly, just the beginning of this year. So a brand new venture, but yeah, two hats. Thank you for that, Matt. You speak to a number of subjects, but I think what I'd like to do is talk about, you talk about sort of the visibility test. When, because this podcast, as you know, it focuses on sort of self-leadership and leading others. And one of the major things sometimes is that it's when we are constantly visible to others and we may feel we're being judged, this constant exposure to. So I was wondering, maybe could we speak to how you operationally define this sort of visibility test or this new visibility test? Sure, absolutely. So I'll give you a little bit of additional background on me and my work at Public Fix. So I started that about 14 years ago and started primarily doing political campaigns in the United States and continue to do so today. So, you know, politics, I think, in many ways, foreshadowed what a lot of leaders now in the corporate spaces, nonprofit spaces would have to contend with, which is this sort of hyper visibility. So always being in. A spotlight when you're trying to make decisions. So in, in the political sphere, um, you know, despite what, what some people might think about transparency and other things, a lot of the decisions that you make are in fact, uh, very visible for, for the public to, uh, react to and form opinions about, and then, um, and then essentially change their voting behavior on rates. So there's a lot of pressure, right? It feels like, uh, especially when you're talking about campaigns where you have these compressed timelines. So in the United States, if you're talking about a presidential race, it's maybe a year and a half of real campaigning for congressional campaigns, maybe six months, seven months. So that's a very compressed timeline. And you have all of these decisions to make about how you're going to run that campaign, what you're going to say to the public. And then once you get into office, a similar issue where people are always paying attention to the details of what you're doing. So you're very much in the spotlight light as, as the leader, right. And as a politician, you are in fact the brand in many ways. Uh, so, so there isn't any sort of removed from, you're not the CEO of. You know, a state, for example, you are the governor, but as, as, uh, for example, but as governor, you are in fact the brand, right. People make judgments based on you, not necessarily the state as, as a whole. Um, if, if that makes sense. So that's, that's something that we were seeing over the years where, um, From a mindset perspective, you're in the room with these folks trying to make these decisions. And again, the pressure definitely leads to certain blocks and mindset issues where, you know, you can end up in sort of decision paralysis a lot. So fast forward to today, now that, and I know this has been the case for a while, but now that everyone's got a smartphone and access to a platform, essentially, right? With social media, essentially anybody. Has a voice, right, and can amplify that voice and amplify their opinion about things. So now what we're seeing and have seen develop over the last seven years, and this is also some work that we've done at Publitix, is that people, consumers are more conscious of what brands and their leaders are saying about particular hot button issues or, and or actually really more of an and. They're also paying attention to what's going on internally at those companies too. So workplace practices, employment practices, do they have ethical, you know, sourcing of materials. So people are really paying attention to these things in a way that you didn't see as much in the prior, you know, 15, 20 years. So now these leaders are sort of thrust into a spotlight and you have all of these different constituencies that you essentially have to speak to. You have your internal teams that have, well, theoretically have one set of values. You have your external audiences who are making decisions about whether to consume or engage with your brand or your business. And then you have policymakers, essentially. And we're seeing a lot of this in the United States and even globally, to some extent, where there's been a little bit of a shift away from some more of what we would consider socially conscious business practices to not really knowing what to do in that space, despite the fact that I think there are a lot of benefits to factoring in some of these things into decision-making. That's a whole other episode, I'm afraid. But yeah, so that's sort of the visibility test. So now as a leader, you're faced with this test of how do you behave in the spotlight? How do you make these decisions in the spotlight? How do you... As a leader, get into a headspace to get through those decisions in the spotlight in a way where you could be a little bit more deliberative behind closed doors previously. I cannot imagine constantly being in the spotlight to the positions that men and women that you speak to that hold. That in itself is a segue into the question, how do you get into that mindset when you feel you You have constant exposure that, you know, every move is scrutinized and judged. I mean, what is your recommendation? I mean, where do we begin a conversation like that when it comes to such a demanding situation? I would say that the very first principle here, from my perspective, is always never assume that you're going to be able to make everyone happy. Right. You are never, ever, ever going to be able to make everyone happy. And that is where we see the most mistakes. Even in the political sphere, you have a lot of these situations where you're around the table, you're trying to make a decision, you're trying to figure out how to win enough votes to get into office or win enough support to get a policy passed, for example. And there's this assumption in the room that you're going to be able to deal with every concern that everybody has. And that's simply not the truth, right? So you're getting a ton of feedback in that moment, where you have your team talking to you about the pluses and minuses of particular policies or approaches to things. You have voters, so for example, we've been in situations where you sit around the table. You have a conversation with the principal, you know, whether, again, that's an elected official or a candidate or an executive. And it could be something as simple as, you know, you come to a decision in that moment or get to closer to a decision in that moment. And then they go off into the world. So, for example, in the example of a local elected official, they walk into their local coffee shop and gets in their ear. One person, right, just a single person gets in their ear about that particular issue and has a contrary viewpoint. So suddenly we're back at the table trying to relitigate that decision, despite the fact that we have a lot of data. Maybe it's polling, maybe it's focus groups. So you have that one interaction that can throw the whole thing off the rails. And I think the impulse, again, is that you're dealing with that in real time, face to face with someone. So you're looking them in the eye. You're seeing the emotional impact of that decision, that policy, and they're reflecting that back to you. So as a leader, there is, I think, some anxiety and fear around disappointing that person because they are your audience in that moment. So then you bring it back and say, well, I think we need to reconsider this whole thing. And so I think you end up with situations where you have a lot of splitting the difference, which is not an effective strategy, generally speaking. I think generally you want to have a viewpoint that or make a decision that aligns with your values as an organization. And that's not going to make everyone happy. So you have to figure out where the important constituencies are. Who do you need to work with in order to operationalize this decision and to move your organization forward and to take that next step? So I would say from a mindset perspective, getting very comfortable with the fact that some people are going to be mad at you. And that's okay. Now, that's not to say that you just sort of do the whole thing where you say, I've made this decision and and that's it because I'm making the decision and don't ask me any questions about it. I don't think that's the case. I think it's more as long as you provide for the most part, make efforts to provide an insight or window into your decision making process, how you got there and how that aligns with your overall values as an organization and as a leader, then you'll you'll be fine. I mean, there will be some discomfort again, because somebody is going to be mad at you. Someone's going to be frustrated with you. It could be your own team, for example. But I think you don't have to agree with it. You just have to understand why that leader got there. So that's that's the first thing is absolutely like get into that headspace of not everyone's going to be happy and that's OK. Back to what you said, when it's sort of a face to face and you can see the emotional feeling. Intensity someone has who disagrees with something you've said or a decision you've made i mean how does someone become a little more bulletproof because i think that's the weight sometimes if we see things on um statistics or facts or it's presented to us i think there's a little more of that objective distance but that subjective stickiness how do you recommend a leader or a person just in general sort of being able to weather that? Oh, absolutely. That's a great question. And to your point about facts and figures, we see that issue all the time where people are able to get that objective distance from it. And when presented with, for example, polling data or market research or focus group data that's fairly representative of the population you're trying to measure opinion in versus an interaction that somebody had, a leader had, with the specific person, oftentimes that interaction does get a heavier weight when the decision-making, even though it doesn't make any sense, right? You would say, okay, well, we have this data. It really points clearly toward one approach or another, one message or another, one decision or another. In fact, it's those sort of personal interactions that do carry weight. So that's a very real-life example of those emotions being very sticky. I mean, you could look at numbers on the page and, and feel relatively comfortable until someone comes and upends your entire day by giving you a contrary opinion, even if that's not representative of the broader population that you're trying to reach. So, um, so I think, you know, the best leaders that we see are the ones who figured out how to pause in the moment. So how, how to, uh. Take in the information that they're being presented by the person in front of them and then pause and develop that emotional distance from from that feedback in the moment. And I think that's really hard because as human beings, we're not programmed to do that. We're programmed to react in the moment. I mean, we have all these sort of evolutionary thing, basically evolutionary hangover from from things that we don't necessarily need anymore. Um you know sort of like a uh or need as much or in the situations that they get triggered right so this whole fight flight uh or fawn response that we have um used to be very useful all the time when we're facing very real mortal kind of danger out in uh more you know wild settings you know you're in the woods uh hunting and gathering and and you know there are all sorts of wild animals that could come get you yeah that's that definitely makes sense to have that that shot of adrenaline and being able to react immediately in that, um, in that time. Now, uh, you know, that doesn't happen as much. I, at least I hope it doesn't for a lot of people. So other types of interactions, right? Tense conversations, for example, can trigger that. So it's not that you're in, uh, any kind of mortal or physical danger for the most part in those conversations. I mean, again, I hope not, but, um, but it does trigger that, that reaction, right? So the impulse is to respond in that moment, to formulate a thought, to formulate a response. So I think a lot of people actually approach, where people fall flat, I think, is they approach these conversations as trying to win the conversation or win sort of a debate rather than opening the door to actually having a conversation to that person, or at least, again, putting some emotional distance. So I'd say that's the biggest thing for developing a thick skin is being able to hear that feedback, pausing and taking a step back because you don't have to actually respond in that moment. Like you don't, you can, you can tell someone that you hear them, you've noted their feedback on something and you can get back to them, right? You do not have to respond in that direct moment, especially in a tense or difficult conversation where someone disagrees with you. So I would say that that is, is, is the biggest thing is once you start to get that space from it, all of a sudden you are able to, to. In some ways, stop tying yourself into that interaction too. So I think again, in those interactions, you, your kind of ego is caught up in, in that conversation. Whereas if you're able to take that space, you're able to kind of put some separation between your ego and the thing that the person said to you. Uh, because when someone pokes at your ego, that hurts, right? That's that's actually, it creates that, that sense that maybe you're not worthy. Maybe it pokes at some imposter syndrome that you suffer from. I mean, every, I think everyone does for, uh, for the most part. Um, so I think those are, those are the, the skills that, that we really try to work with our clients on is, is figuring out how, how to pause in that moment and then, and then take some emotional distance, take a step back and kind of reframe their thinking around it. And, and not, again, not have to respond in that moment with the definitive, here's my decision. It's more of a, okay, we hear you. Thank you. And, uh, I will get back to you on this and then and then you know taking taking a minute to to reflect and again notice notice what you're feeling in your body too i mean that sounds kind of crazy but it's these are some of the tools over the years that or would sound crazy to a lot of people in in the political or strategic communication space in particular where it's like where are you feeling in your body like notice notice that feeling notice the emotions and then kind of observe it from afar and let it pass you. Just let it run through and then return back to the content of what was said to you rather than sitting in the emotion. No, I could see that as being a very excellent practice, especially when you. You're, you're able to step back, but in an intense conversation was someone who maybe vehemently disagrees with what you've said. I'm just thinking, you know, of an intense, immediate conversation where emotions are riled up, you know, what would be an intent, a tangible internal practice for a leader to, I guess, cultivate or to create that sort of crucial space or pause. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's thinking of it as sort of the intake phase for information, right? Not the response, but the intake phase, right? So I'm here to receive and to listen and to process. I'm not here to respond. So the response, like you said, is I hear what you're saying. I'm processing saying what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I'll get back to you about this at some point or help me understand more. Like if you're curious about it too, I think that's the other, the other, um, the other thing that we work with leaders is developing a sense of curiosity rather than approaching things with, uh, with, with judgment or, uh, with, with a critical eye is more curiosity. So if you're curious about something, it's less likely to be scary, uh, for you to, for you to confront. So in that you, you could say, well, you know, I'd like you to help me understand more about what you're saying, right. And, and start to interrogate that in not in a, not in a threatening way, but again, inviting that person to, to provide more context. Um, and, and oftentimes too, um, if, if it is a really heated conversation in that moment and someone's giving you feedback and it's making you uncomfortable, um, that will help take some of the air out of, of the situation, right. It will, it will calm things down a little bit. I mean, another thing, you know, leaders can do or anybody really can do in a difficult conversation is label the emotion. I can see you're frustrated. By this. Right. And immediately that takes the person and you could do that for yourself too. I think so labeling emotions actually is very helpful for both, both you as a leader confronting a situation like this and the other person. Cause when you say, Oh, I, I see that you're very frustrated or internally you're thinking, okay, this is frustration or this is anger or this is, um, uh, defensiveness, right? Like whatever feeling you're having in, in, um, in your mind and body, once you label it, you're not sitting in it, right? Because if you're just frustrated and you're sitting in the frustration, you're going to wrap everything that you do in that frustration and blast it right out of you. Whereas if you say, this is frustration, right? You notice and you're stepping back and you're like, okay, yeah, I am frustrated here. And then you can make a better decision about what to do next. So again, how to respond, you know, again, I hear you. Thank you for sharing your input. You know, we're going to consider that something like that, as opposed to actually, I believe the other, the opposite thing is true or, you know, getting in someone's face and responding to them with equal frustration or anger. Same thing is when you say it to someone else, right? I could see that you're very angry or frustrated. All of a sudden they're, they're in that anger when they're, when they're speaking to you. And then when you label that, they go, Oh wait, maybe I'm a little angry. And it causes them to step back too. It, it, it, you know, promotes, promotes a little bit of, of again, that, that emotional distance from, from the conversation, you can kind of get back to a more level footing. So I think those, those are two, two techniques internally and labeling emotions is very helpful in, in, in that sense. And then, and then again, thinking of it or framing your thinking as a, as a pause or as, as the intake phase rather than the response phase again, because I think there's an impulse of, from, from leaders to be like, you need to, you need to have the answer right now and it's gotta be the right answer. And it's like, that's, that's not true. That's actually not true at all. You just need to listen and then make sure that people know that you listened and then come back with something, again, that aligns with the values that your organization holds steer. So I think those are the tips that we typically work with leaders to try to cultivate those practices. Yeah. So if I, as a leader, I know I'm going into you know, the lion's den per se. And I know there's going to be people who have opposition to what I say or who will challenge me. I may want to prime myself to say, look, I'm not there to respond. I'm there to curious. I'm there to learn their perspective. I don't have to agree with it or to acknowledge. I can acknowledge their point of view, but I don't have to agree with what they're saying. But if I take on a curious mindset, I can ask more questions to explore their thinking, perhaps maybe not ask them why they think that to justify their answer, but more, what is the reason you believe that? And then thank you for sharing or I see your point of view. Maybe find some sort of common ground without actually agreeing with them. And that in itself by people, from what I understand, is that when people feel listened to or they've got to explain or articulate their thoughts or emotions around something, that can really take sort of the sting out of the moment. That's exactly true. So I think as a leader, when you're walking into a contentious situation, you know, you know, it's a, for example, you're walking into the boardroom and, you know, you're going to have some board members that disagree with you on a particular issue or, again, like a member of Congress, right? To bring it back to that, where you have members of the public in a town hall and you're walking into that town hall and you know they're upset with you. I think there are two pieces, right? So sort of two phases. So, number one, if this is still the information gathering, actually the information gathering phase, then you absolutely should go in there with a sense of curiosity and help, again, invite people into that conversation. It's not a debate per se. It's, again, opening the door to those conversations. Actually, in terms of persuasion, right, when you're thinking about actually persuading people of a viewpoint that you already have, that is one of the most effective ways to do it is to draw that information out of them, be curious and try to find common ground. So there is a lot of great research on this technique called deep canvassing, right? When people are out knocking on doors on behalf of political candidates, they are essentially... Engaging in some storytelling and then also kind of a motivational interviewing technique in order to get people to realize that there's a lot of common ground on issues where maybe you wouldn't think there's common ground. So common principles, common values, you just don't, you just didn't see it previously. You know, it's labor intensive, but it's very worthwhile to do because again, saying, telling someone you're wrong is the first way to completely shut the conversation out. When I say you're wrong, immediately you're going to be like, oh, well, I don't want to talk to you anymore. You know what? No, you're wrong. And then you end up in a bit of a stalemate. No one goes home with a different perspective and everyone goes home frustrated. So I think if you're in the information gathering phase, I think curiosity is definitely one of the biggest superpowers you can deploy in those situations. The second is if you've already made a decision, right? You've made the decision, it's done, it's executed, and then you have to go in and sell it to a group of people, right? So again, for example, on the town hall, Well, so I guess going back to the decision piece of it, where you where we see a lot of issues, right, where people get really angry is when the decision that the leader ultimately makes does not align with the values that they that they state they stand for. Right. So and then they try to shoehorn in some crazy explanation as to why it's not a problem. And that's where people get really, really angry. So instead of actually listening and making a decision and taking a principled stand on something, maybe they've made a decision that doesn't align with values. And that's when you start to lose people, ultimately. So it's very important, I think, as you're going through the decision-making process, like, what are the values of my organization? What values does my team feel are important? Because you have a whole workforce, for example, that operates theoretically or is motivated by a set of shared values and shared purpose and shared mission. So what is that? And always return to that and ask yourself, does this decision align with that? I'll give you a good example of an area where we've seen this kind of go off the rails in some of these difficult conversations. So in the US, we've had issues with this administration issuing executive orders that targeted specific law firms, right? Essentially threatening business. Some law firms decided to sue and fight back. Others decided that they were going to, more or less capitulate and give out free legal work in order to not be targeted by the administration. What we saw at the law, so when you're an attorney, the whole ethos, again, you can debate whether or not they're ethical or unethical parts of the law, I think, or being an attorney. But I think, you know, most most people go into the law and in the legal profession because they have respect for the rule of law. Right. They that is that is wrapped up in their identity. Right. So we have this system in the United States where if there is an injustice done, you can go to the courts and you can have some sort of legal redress. And it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what you look like, what you believe. Everyone should theoretically have equal access to that system in order to resolve conflicts and resolve um you know matters of of injustice um now if you're working for a place and and that's your ethos right everyone deserves representation everyone deserves an advocate um even the corporations right like everyone all the all of these corporations deserve vigorous advocacy in front of the courts and then all of a sudden you go you know what we're going we're going to kind to turn our back temporarily on the rule of law in order to protect ourselves short-term, all of a sudden you see a lot of partners and associates and other people work at these places. I mean, there's definitely a morale issue for sure. But then also, a lot of them left and went to other firms too. And clients left. Because if you're hiring an attorney, again, you're hiring someone that you think is going to go to the mat for you if you need... If you need that kind of service. Now, I'm not, you know, again, making it, it's very hard to make that decision in that moment, because it seems like you're, you're facing down an incredible, an incredible existential threat. But long term, I think you can do a lot of damage by just sort of sitting, sitting there and trying to solve their short term problem rather than enduring a little bit of pain in the short term. And then, and then, you know, setting yourself up in the long term for more success, but you see where the values don't align there, right? So you have this value tied up in being an attorney in the legal profession that everyone deserves access to the legal system. And then all of a sudden you make a decision that doesn't align with those values. All of a sudden you have a lot of other problems maybe that you didn't anticipate. So I think, again, you look at any decision that a leader makes and trying to get comfortable with the spotlight there. I think, again, enduring some of that short-term pain and taking some emotional distance there can really help save you some long-term structural issues, eroding the foundation of your organization, not a way to avoid that short-term payment. It's not worth it, in my view. In the first half of our conversation, Matt explored the increasing complexity of leadership in the world of relentless visibility. Drawing on his political and corporate experience, he emphasized that trying to satisfy every audience is not only unrealistic, well, it's a recipe for diluted leadership. Instead, he encouraged leaders to anchor themselves in their values and be intentional in every decision. We unpacked how leaders can navigate difficult decision-making moments, especially when balancing hard data with human emotion. Matt stressed the importance of transparency in explaining how decisions are made. even when not everyone agrees with the outcome. To help leaders manage the emotional toil of feedback, Matt introduced strategies to create healthy distance, including, well, pausing before reacting, labeling emotions to reduce their influence, and adopting a curious mindset during tense conversations. We also explored how to lead difficult conflict without defaulting to persuasion or defensiveness. Instead, Matt recommended deep listening, drawing out others' perspectives and returning to the organization's core values as a compass in difficult conversations. It pretty much means be curious, explore the other person's perspectives. Now, all these insights that Matt has shared with us have been forged in experience. So these insights form a pragmatic toolkit for the veteran leader or for that freshly minted leader. Who very often find themselves navigating scrutiny, complexity, and emotional intensity. Well, now let's slip back to the stream of part two of my conversation with Matt Creighton, where he shares more key insights. We've all been there, right? I think we've all been in situations where we have to make these very difficult decisions and in some ways, again, are presented with an option in that decision that doesn't necessarily align with their values. And so I think that that is the difficulty. And I wouldn't frame it as even frailty. I think it's just the condition of being a human, unfortunately. If we were computers who could weigh all of the data points and not, again, have any emotional attachment or fear or anxiety about things, that would be great. Well, I mean, I would argue in some ways, maybe not so great, but, um, but I mean, in terms of decision-making, I think that would be great. Um, so, um. But we're not. We're not. Right. We are human beings that have have these emotional we have an emotional stake in the things that happen in our lives and in business and in organizations that we lead. So it is incredibly difficult. And I think one of the things that that is really important, again, when we're talking about leadership is that leaders surround themselves with with, you know, trust, trusted advisors. Someone who could be an objective third party that can really help drill these skills and mindset and drill on skills and then practice mindset and reframing thinking around some of these things before you even have to make a difficult decision. And I think that's that's one of the most important things that I think goes missing. Right. So, like, I mean, this is this is one of the big frustrations. And this is actually what what led Molly and I to start to aspire. It was both of us had worked in politics and government. So, again, I kind of gave you my story. Molly was the what they call a cabinet secretary for the Department of Health and Social Services in the state of Delaware. So she was appointed by the governor to essentially lead this gigantic department with, you know, 4,000 employees with several billion dollar budget during the COVID pandemic. Right. So in charge of health, essentially. And so we've been and have worked in had worked in a bunch of other positions. And I think as we were talking about leadership and it oftentimes like when you're in these pressure packed situations, particularly in campaigns or even, you know, situations like a pandemic, you're in, again, this compressed sort of pressure cooker of a, of a, a, um, an environment. And what goes missing again is, is like, there's not a whole lot of mindset work that goes into preparing these leaders for, for these, these situations, right? So even if you look at a campaign and you're talking about doing debate prep. Right, like a lot of that focuses on delivering the line, right, and what to say, but not so much like how are you going to manage your own emotions during this process, right? How are you going to manage your temperament? How are you going to manage taking all of the sort of incoming verbal fire from your opponent on the stage, right? So what you end up having are people who are... Good leaders, but also are facing these big monumental decisions without that support for mindset or even the folks that are supporting them, right? Like, you know, campaign managers or the chiefs of staff or things like that. So what we saw missing was like, okay, we could tell people what to say, how to say it, all of those different things, right? We could develop the message. We could develop really catchy advertising. We could, you know, do polling and figure out what the public thinks about stuff and we could hand the hand a package and we often do to to the leader and say hey say these things and and you know that that align with your platform and values and like here's how you say and this is what you should do and still there's some difficulty in certain situations executing that strategy because there just isn't work on the mindset so that's what we, that's what we we thought like you know we really need to kind of drill down because we were using different techniques like we would spend a lot of time coaching it as doing our strategic do communications work, coaching clients into a place where they could actually say the thing that they needed to say, um. Rather than actually focus. We were brought in to figure out what to say and how to say it. Right. That, that was our essential, um, role most of the time. But once you get around the table with folks, you're like, okay, well, how do you get to a place where you can actually make the decision and then sell that decision? And, and so we were like, we need to have more of this, right? More coaching, more leadership development, more mindset work before you can even start executing on those decisions. And again, it goes missing. I mean, in our experience, it goes missing quite a bit. And people just forget because they're thinking about the tactics and not thinking about the person that actually has to do the work, which is really, has been kind of fascinating to go through throughout our career. So in a sense, is it advocating for an objective perspective, perhaps for lack of a better term, having devil's advocate who kind of sits outside sort of the subjective storm that a leader may face? And he or she knows that at some point, they will have to make a tough decision between decisions and values and the fog of uncertainty and to sort of beforehand have some sort of or hire someone, whether it's a coach or a consultant or whatever we want to call them, as an objective voice to make that hard decision. Not a hard decision to advocate for the long-term benefit. Are we sticking to the values by making this decision? Like having people there to call us out on our choices in the short term. Absolutely. And I think that the primary reason for that is that if you bring in someone who can play that role, they have some emotional remove from the situation. Whereas people around you, your CFO, your COO, your advisors, your chief of staff, all the people within the organization, they also have... An emotional stake in the decisions that are made, right? Because, you know, when you're building something, you oftentimes get into a mental place where you feel some sense of ownership over that. You know, vice presidents, your employees, like they all theoretically have some kind of emotional tie into that. And that can definitely create some difficulty before you, Again, before you've gone through the mindset work and working through these issues, it's like so everyone can be kind of clouded and bring that sort of emotional weight to bear on problems. Whereas if you bring in someone from the outside who can maintain, who's trusted, but can maintain that emotional remove and say like, okay, we're, we're seeing the situation, you know, here's where we see the mindset blocks, um. In, in, within the decision or the leadership team or the executive team. I think that's incredibly important to have someone who can maintain that distance, but also understands the business, also understands the leaders, but doesn't get so emotionally tied up in it. And that's, I mean, it sounds like a bad thing. You want to have some emotional involvement or at least emotional motivation there. But I actually don't think that's very helpful. I think it's helpful to have someone that's pretty objective and can, you know, again, keep that distance between them and the decision and help the people that are making the decisions get there. So it's not like you're telling them what decision to make. You're helping them sort through all of the different inputs, whether those are emotional stimulus, you know, facts and figures. You're helping them sort through all of those inputs to get to a better place. Well, I think by having that external voice, as you suggested, Matt, especially someone who may use it external to the culture of that team or that organization, they can see things with maybe not a fresh perspective, but a different perspective. And then they can actually call us out on certain things if we're part of that internal process. I'd just like to segue into another thing that you and your firm or your consultancy group speak to is sort of the public voice and private truth. And then this kind of leads to understanding sometimes why we have as leaders or politicians and stuff, sometimes where we feel we have to wear a mask and not sort of show who we truly are to those outside that we're speaking to. What is often the root cause for this, that we feel we need to wear a mask? This is one of the great tragedies of our public life, I think, and leads us to all sorts of outcomes that genuinely harm people. Uh, and not, not just the person wearing the mask, but the, the people who are, uh, who, who depend upon those leaders to make those, those decisions and to, to lead with, with integrity. Um, so I, I think one of the, I think there's this, this huge delta between what the, especially in, in sort of political or public facing leadership, there's, there's a big delta between what people perceive they want in the leader versus what is actually effective. In, in, in leading, right? What qualities are effective in leading. And so I think that we have sort of cultivated these sort of stereotypes of leaders, right, that always have the right answer, that know exactly what to do in every situation immediately, that are articulate and charismatic. And they have the looks and are great storytellers and can articulate big, beautiful vision for different things. And the reality is, yeah, all of those things are important, but if you can't actually persuade people and get people rowing toward a shared mission and shared values, you're never going to be able to lead effectively, right? Right. So so it's sort of hollow. Right. It's it's the performance performance part of it that I think we as a society and as a culture have traditionally viewed as leadership. Right. So when you're talking to. So this is really interesting when you're doing focus groups, which which are essentially, you know, you get a bunch of people who are representative of the population around the table and you give them information about a candidate. So you show them videos sometimes of speeches or ads or photos or go through different descriptions of people. A lot of the things that... That, you know, the things that people gravitate toward, particularly in times of uncertainty, is this idea of perceived strength. Is this a strong person? Is this a strong leader? And strength, I think, in those limited circumstances without being able to sit in a room with the person for extended periods of time and watch how they work through problems, is this sort of. Very confident kind of outward confidence, right, in their viewpoints on certain things without, again, without the sort of substance of, okay, well, how do you actually operationalize those decisions and the values that you espouse? So that leads us down paths where I think people are attracted to people who say, I'll fix it for you, right? Like that's, I think, a very attractive thing in a time of uncertainty. Like I know exactly what's wrong. I know what the answer is and I will fix it for you. Even though they have no idea. So the leader in that sense is putting on a mask, right? Because they know they don't have the answer. I mean, some of them might think they actually have the answers, but a lot of them know that they don't have all of the answers, right? They're just saying that because they feel like that's what's going to get them into a better place. The really good leaders are able to communicate through uncertainty, right? And communicate through the process and, and reassure people without, without the bombastic, um, you know, sort of like, I will fix it for you type language. So I think that, you know, the, those are the best leaders. And, and I think the impulse wearing a mask, I think in any case is, is a product of fear, product of being seen for who you are. Because I think, um, in many ways when, um, when folks, and this is not everybody, but certain people are drawn to public life and drawn onto the spotlight in that way, there are probably areas of your life that you're not... Particularly satisfied with, you know, that you feel like you're, um, that you feel like there's sort of a hole that you have to fill with the attention that you're getting on that public stage. So you put on this mask because you're afraid that people, when they see your authentic self are not going to want you to lead. They're not going to care about you. And a lot, I mean, this is going to sound kind of a little bit out there, but some of this stuff goes back to childhood wounds right like stuff that that kids you know deal with when you're growing up in your in your most formative years like childhood trauma is a real is i mean it again for a political you know person who's working politics it kind of sounds insane to say that but if you talk to a lot of these people like there's something in their childhood where you look back and go man like you know they had parents that didn't quite pay attention to them um you know in a way or valued or or you know told their kids that they valued strength and and being tough over you know compassion and empathy. So to sort of please that parent, you know, you develop this sort of mask of like, maybe you are a sensitive kid who who's interested in things that are not tough, but you got to put on the mask to please your parent. And then that carries over into adulthood and you carry that into your public life. So, and there are a lot of reasons that people wear masks, but I think there's, again, this profound fear of being seen in a way that's, that's authentic for people. Um, even me saying this right now, so this is kind of funny as, as we talk about this, right? So, um, getting into politics about, you know, again, roughly 14 years ago when I, when I first started this first campaigns, you get this, you get, you have this sort of picture of. Um, what political consultants look like or people working politics look like, right? They're kind of buttoned up, uh, they're, uh, very serious people, right? And they don't talk about things like trauma or, or emotions or empathy as much as you would hope they would. And so you kind of cultivate this persona that it's like, you know, you're putting the suit on, you're going into these rooms and acting like the leader that you are, you know. And so to even like talk about some of these things that we're talking about now, like there is actually a little bit of a level of discomfort with that because it's like you throw on it. Because for me, there... I think they're important things to talk about, but it took me a while to get to a space where it's like, it's okay to talk about mental health challenges. It's okay to talk about, um, you know, these, these issues that contribute to the, to these fundamentally very human experiences in a very open kind of way. Um, it, it's scary when you first start doing it because it's like, you're going to think, Oh, well, people are going to think you're a lunatic or some like, you know, kind of a woo woo, whatever. But it's, that's not the case actually. Like people, When you do it, you find out that more people are actually interested in what you have to say and have been kind of hoping that someone would pull the lid off first and start talking about it. So let me ask you this then. I mean, if we bring it down to an organization or a company, someone is just being promoted to a leader. And regardless of age, but it's a new role. And we all, I think at the top of this part of the conversation, you talked about sort of all the character traits that we think makes a good leader. So we sometimes have this false narrative of what a leader or a manager does. And the person will think, you know what, I need to score some early wins. I can't show any weakness that'll show I'm incompetent or they made a mistake or whatever this false narrative is. And thus, they put on this mask, as you talked, all buttoned up, very professional, very hardcore. They don't show any cracks or vulnerabilities. But if we're going to create, if we want to become a more authentic leader, to be more real in front of our people, our employees, the people who follow us or that we lead, what do you feel, Matt, from your experience? You know what's the first inner conversation needed in order to take off this false narrative or this mask from your experience yeah i mean i think part of it is taking an inventory of of who you are as a person to begin with i think it requires actually some some degree of self-awareness that that um isn't necessarily natural for a lot of us right to sit there and go like this. For me, and I think for a lot of people, it starts as a feeling of this does not feel right to me. It doesn't feel like I'm fully showing up as myself here. I'm not presenting in a way that I normally would in a different situation. And it's like, why is that? What is it that I am I am so concerned about in in this situation? So I think cultivating that, you know, at least some level of self-awareness to begin with so that you can take inventory of like what it is that you feel like you're holding back in the workplace. So so I think I think that's that's definitely a big piece of it. And then and then the next is, you know, again, whether it's it's developing some sort of, you know, again, mindfulness practice where you're aware of the things you're feeling as you as you go through this process of of leading more authentically and showing up as yourself. And I think there's there's actually a little bit of a confusion, too, is like people can conflate authenticity with all sorts of different different issues. So I think people conflate authenticity with, for example, being a jerk in some cases. Well, I'm just kind of a gruff, get it done, no-nonsense persons, and that's my authentic self, so I'm going to be a jerk. That's not it. That's not authenticity. That's just being a jerk. Or being so out there and edgy that it's genuinely disruptive to people. I think that's also kind of conflating authenticity. But but everyone has a specific way of communicating specific, again, values that they hold internally and and quirks and kind of letting that out, I think, is is a whole process. But it starts with that self-awareness, being able to take inventory of who you are first, rather than trying to do stuff that we see it all the time in politics. Oh, you got to be more authentic. It's like, OK, well, I'm going to I'm going to like pretend like, you know, I want to grab a beer and pretend like I'm a person that's like super interesting and fun and fun to hang out with. Kind of like, you know, at the frat party time deal. But it's like, no, you're not. You're kind of a wonky data nerd who loves facts and figures and policy. Lean into that, right? If that's who you are, then be that person and embrace it and do it in a fun way. You don't have to be the prom king. You can be the nerd if you want to be. So that's sort of where I... Where I would say to start is like to have that, have that authenticity, have that conversation with yourself. Like, you know, what am I, what am I holding back here? And why am I holding it back? Why am I putting this on this mask? And am I not effectively communicating as a leader because I'm afraid that people are going to, going to see me as a person? And am I afraid to be vulnerable? Am I afraid to show empathy for people? I think there's a lot of that, unfortunately, out there. i think it's very important i think we all know it that you know we as human beings we can smell the the the the facade we can smell the superficiality when someone's not really being their true selves you can see it i mean there's just this awkwardness and their mannerisms and their inflections and their body language there's a disconnect between what they say and what we see. And I think sometimes we try to mask it over. And I completely concur with you. I mean, whether you're at a party or a meeting or some sort of event, and you're talking to someone who's truly sincere, authentic, who is not trying to be extravagant or flamboyant. They are just who they are. And you can see when someone sort of speaks to their truth. But at the same time, I think there is a level of masking that is important because when we're in a professional environment, we don't want to reveal everything. There is some level of being put on that mask of a professional, maybe putting on the uniform of a professional, and we can allow some level of authenticity. But I think masking in itself, there is some sort of legitimate reasons to have it. But I think what I hear you're saying, Matt, is if it's some sort of false narrative or some sort of belief we believe of this is what someone should be who is in a leadership role, then that can be a detriment. Am I sort of... Scoring close to what you're speaking to you are yeah and it definitely can be a detriment and also it has the impact of i think people in the organization when you're trying to call i mean because one of the big the most important jobs of the leaders to cultivate other leaders in that organization as well is that you end up missing a whole bunch of talent in in your organization because they don't feel like the this sort of archetype of a leader that's been put forth, so they hold themselves back they don't raise their hand they don't step forward into those leadership positions because they're they're also afraid of being seen if they don't see that behavior modeled at the top so if it's just again this this very sort of scripted stilted kind of. Performance from from leaders you're going to miss all sorts of people who have a lot to contribute to organizations but are just afraid because they they'll sit there and they see again the model behavior and to say, I'm not a leader. I'm not, I'm not one of those people. I could never be one of those people. When in reality, a lot of those, the ones that don't raise their hand, I mean, like if you, and I'll attribute this to Molly's, one of her things is, you know, there's a lot of buried treasure in these organizations and you're constantly running up against this where you, you go into these organizations and you start talking to people and you're like, wait a second, why aren't you in charge of this? Because it's, I think there's, again, this sort of combination of imposter syndrome and. And, again, seeing modeled behavior of leadership and then you say to yourself, I'm not that person, I'm not that leader. When in reality, again, you talk to these people and they are actually buried treasure. They know everything. They know how to motivate teams. They've put together all these wonderful systems in their little corner of the organization and yet they're still, they're just stuck. They're stuck there because of that, I think, masking from the top and this lack of, again, authenticity in the culture. So I think it does have a huge impact, even way downstream where you're trying to cultivate other leaders. So then you end up with people who are willing to do the performance as opposed to do the thing that needs to be done. So it's really an interesting thing that we keep running into is, again, you start talking to folks. Wait a second. You should be in charge. You're like, what's happening? What's happening? Or like, why are you relegated to the, you know, to the, you know, darkest corners in the organization? You have a lot to contribute. And you're time and time again, well, you know, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not leadership material. I, you know, our leaders look like and sound like and do this. And it's like, well, you know, that's not true, actually. It's just modeled for you. We've covered a lot of ground today, Matt. I was, and we're coming close to the top of the hour. I'm very respectful of your time. Is there one core message from all your experiences working with politicians and top leaders and just doing what you do that would be of super benefit to our listeners today? Yeah, I would say the one thing is, you know, don't try to skip the part where you focus on the person making the decision, right, or having to lead. Because again, I think we often see people skip to the tactics and the strategy and like trying to implement and look so far down the road before actually doing the foundational work of like, is this leader in a headspace where they can actually execute the strategy and, um, and, and persuade people of, of, of viewpoint if, if that's necessary to do so. So I think I would say, you know, do the mindset work. Don't be afraid to. Delve into areas that, uh, may not be comfortable for you. Don't, don't be afraid to develop practices that may not seem like they align necessarily with your vision of what a leader does. But I mean, things like, again, mindfulness and meditation and, and, uh, breath work and like all of those things are incredibly helpful. Um, even if they don't seem like, like they're things that people in certain spaces do, you know, it's like you're wearing a suit in the boardroom and And it's like, oh, that guy just meditated or did some breath work before walking in here. I think, again, don't be afraid to do that because it's actually very helpful. And there's a lot of neuroscience out there that shows that these things are very helpful. So don't skip the person, right? Don't skip the person and get straight to the strategy and the tactics. Really focus on building up leaders as an asset as opposed to just a vehicle for decision making. It's they're actually, you know, we're all human beings and we have to be we have to approach it as such. Well, Matt, you're a well of knowledge. If one of our listeners or many of our listeners want to reach out to learn more about what you do, what would be the best place they could reach out to you? Sure. The best place to reach is M2Aspire.com. So that's M and then the number two, aspire.com. I'm also on LinkedIn at Matthew Creighton. I think I'm on there. But anyway, if you Google Matt Creighton, too, I'm also the only one I think that spells my name like that. So you'll find me straight away on the homepage. So LinkedIn, M2 Aspire, those are the best ways to get in touch. We're also on Instagram and we have a sub stack as well. So that's, I think, sub stack dot com slash M2 Aspire as well. I'll be sure to leave all those links in the show notes. Well, Matt, thank you very much for an intriguing conversation today. I've learned a lot. Thank you so much for having me. Well, that brings us to the tail end of a rich and thought-provoking conversation with Matthew Creighton. We explored what it means to lead in the age of constant scrutiny, where decisions are dissected in real time and every word carries weight. Matt reminded us that effective leadership isn't about pleasing everyone. It's about being anchored in your values, acting with intention, and staying accountable where it truly matters. We also talked about how to manage the emotional load that comes with leadership. Especially moments of criticism or conflict, Matt shared actionable tools like pausing, labeling emotions, and embracing curiosity instead of defensiveness. Now, these aren't just abstract ideas. They're strategies you can use the next time you find yourself under pressure. And I'm sure that will be just around the corner. We also touched on how to stay aligned when your values are challenged, whether you're leading a law firm under fire or navigating change in your organization. Matt's message was clear. Short-term survival should never come at the cost of long-term trust. And here's the key insight that I talked about in the introduction. Many leaders aren't just performing for the public. They're performing for themselves. They wear a mask to fit into an image of what leadership should look like. And over time, that mask becomes so familiar that they lose touch with who they really are. Decisions become driven by fear, performance, or expectations. And not by clarity, or purpose, or authenticity. And that's the real leadership risk. And it's also the opportunity. When you start doing the internal work, when you reconnect with your values, sharpen your mindset, and lead from who you actually are, Well, you stop performing and you start leading with conviction. If parts of this conversation resonated with you, I'd really love to hear from you and to get your feedback. And if you know someone this could benefit, please share the episode with them. It helps me to spread the word. And Matt, a personal thank you from me for spending some time with me. I know your time is very valuable and I appreciate the hour we could carve out. And folks, if you're interested in reaching out to Matt, I will leave all his contact information in the show notes. But I will see you Friday for Bite Size Fridays. And until then, keep well, keep strong, and we'll speak soon. Music.